Shortpro
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| 2/10/2009 11:40 AM |
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Couple weeks ago a guy at our table says he has a ten in his hand (top pair) to get a flush draw to lay down. The draw folds and sure enough he shows the ten. I say, "you can't say what cards you really have". He doesn't believe me about the rule so BIG DAVE agrees and gives him a warning. An hour later a different guy at the table in a dry side pot tells me he has a 4 when there's two fours our there. If he doesn't have a four I'm gonna win the entire pot. I call because we just went over the rule where you can't say what you really have. Therefore I believed he truly didn't have a four. He had a four and I lost. What should have happened? The table was already warned? We just went over the rule. RC rules say after a warning the hand can be called a DEAD HAND? What's a dead hand and what should have happened to the pot?
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JohnAlfano
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| 2/10/2009 2:01 PM |
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Posted By Shortpro on 2/10/2009 11:40 AM
Couple weeks ago a guy at our table says he has a ten in his hand (top pair) to get a flush draw to lay down. The draw folds and sure enough he shows the ten. I say, "you can't say what cards you really have". He doesn't believe me about the rule so BIG DAVE agrees and gives him a warning. An hour later a different guy at the table in a dry side pot tells me he has a 4 when there's two fours our there. If he doesn't have a four I'm gonna win the entire pot. I call because we just went over the rule where you can't say what you really have. Therefore I believed he truly didn't have a four. He had a four and I lost. What should have happened? The table was already warned? We just went over the rule. RC rules say after a warning the hand can be called a DEAD HAND? What's a dead hand and what should have happened to the pot?
With an hour passing, you could have a vastly different set of players at the table.
Believe nothing and bet accordingly. Too bad you lost. |
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Shortpro
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| 2/10/2009 2:54 PM |
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| First guy warned was to my left. Second guy was to my right. Both (and myself) were there for the first warning. |
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Jim
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| 2/10/2009 3:06 PM |
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Poker is poker is poker...
Part of that is mind playing. I remember watching the WSOP coverage a few years back where someone had told another player what he had in his hand. Norm Chad had mentioned that it's illegal to tell someone what you actually have, but it would be ok to lie to them.
The illegal part is not entirely correct. It's unethical. Not illegal. Jamie gold did it several times during his win. He never had a hand taken away but he was given a tongue lashing AFTER the event by the tournament officials.
At RPT, we put certain rules in effect to help the expected new players to cope. Inexperience is welcomed here, so we make certain things a rule to ensure a positive experience for everyone. To the best of our abilities.
The guy played poker. HE told you what he had. You called based on some rule. You are experienced enough to understad that. Do you really want the hand back?
Everything could have played out the way it did at a real casino without repercussion. THe hand finished out. If you really had an issue with him calling his hand out, you should have called Dave over before you acted. Dave would have probably called the hand dead because of the prior warning.
Once you acted though, the hand plays. You can't call under the assumption that he would be breaking a rule, and expect to get the hand be called dead AFTER you acted. Gotta get that sorted out before you act.
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http://riggstad-nutstraight.blogspot.com/index.html
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Shortpro
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| 2/10/2009 3:36 PM |
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| Makes sense and that clears things up for me. Thanks. |
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Seth
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| 2/10/2009 3:43 PM |
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i had a similar circumstance at Peppers last night.
Blinds I believe were 2-4, the flop comes 5-6-3 rainbow. Hung, who anyone who plays at Peppers knows who he is, tells Scott Uhl he has 4-2 and that he would be wasting his chips. Scott disregards his warnings after the flop and turn and continues to bet into him until he checks after the river. Hung bets, Scott calls and flips over 4-2 of diamonds and tells Scott he told him and that he was foolish for betting into him when he had already said he had flopped the straight. It was more in good fun since we all knew each other, but Scott thought he was playing mind games when Hung was actually giving him the courtesy of letting him know what he had so he didn't have to waste chips on the hand. It's poker
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OswaldR
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| 2/10/2009 4:56 PM |
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| Never posted here before, but I do believe this...If a rule exists, it should be followed, AND ENFORCED. If it is not enforced EVERY time, it should be removed from the list of rules. That is the fair thing. My opinion. |
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nutmegs6187
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| 2/10/2009 5:15 PM |
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Well, it is in the Riverchasers rules....
10. Verbally disclosing the contents of your hand or advising a player how to play a hand may result in a dead hand, and multiple occurrences may result in disqualification.
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Seth
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| 2/10/2009 5:23 PM |
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Posted By nutmegs6187 on 2/10/2009 5:15 PM
Well, it is in the Riverchasers rules....
10. Verbally disclosing the contents of your hand or advising a player how to play a hand may result in a dead hand, and multiple occurrences may result in disqualification.
I think this qualifies as the TD's discretion which is fine with me
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JohnAlfano
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| 2/10/2009 5:25 PM |
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Posted By nutmegs6187 on 2/10/2009 5:15 PM
Well, it is in the Riverchasers rules....
10. Verbally disclosing the contents of your hand or advising a player how to play a hand may result in a dead hand, and multiple occurrences may result in disqualification.
The only rule I tend to have in play during these Riverchasers events is Drink a beer and confuse a Spade for a club.
(And lose that nut flush) |
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Hitman27
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| 2/10/2009 6:29 PM |
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| Or everyone can grab a Kleenex, play poker and stop whining because you were a SUCKER. |
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dogballs
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| 2/10/2009 9:26 PM |
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i just want to add a quick sidebar to this post. i was at a table at an RC game not long ago and there was a hand where there were 2 guys all in by the turn with 1 guy to act. the cards itself are not that important, just that there was a flush/broadway draw. the point of the story is, as the 3rd guy was deciding to call or not, one player not in the hand said something (about the 3rd possible caller) along the lines of, "he must have Ah,Jh. one of the all in players says, "he doesnt have Jh, that much i can tell you.".
to me, this inferred that he, in fact, had the Jh. is this technically the same as telling someone outright what cards you do have?
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Shortpro
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| 2/10/2009 10:39 PM |
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Sounds like a dead hand to me.
HITMAN, how are we Suckers for trying to follow the rules as they're written? Don't think anyone was crying. |
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Hitman27
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| 2/11/2009 10:08 AM |
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Posted By Shortpro on 2/10/2009 10:39 PM
Sounds like a dead hand to me.
HITMAN, how are we Suckers for trying to follow the rules as they're written? Don't think anyone was crying.
TWO WORDS: FREE GAME |
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Shortpro
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| 2/11/2009 11:32 AM |
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Dude,
I'm gonna crush you in the Post Forum Invitational - then you can cry FREE FREE FREE FREE all the way home. |
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Hitman27
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| 2/11/2009 1:32 PM |
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| Just make sure you don't speculate on everyone's hand everytime and don't take 10 minutes for every decision, that's all I ask. Also, if it's online you don't have to wear the goofy shades. |
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Gorilla
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| 2/11/2009 1:40 PM |
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| FREE FREE FREE all the way home....classic! |
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griff49
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| 2/13/2009 2:04 PM |
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Posted By OswaldR on 2/10/2009 4:56 PM
Never posted here before, but I do believe this...If a rule exists, it should be followed, AND ENFORCED. If it is not enforced EVERY time, it should be removed from the list of rules. That is the fair thing. My opinion.
The rule is enforced, and the rule says it "may result in a dead hand." It doesn't say it WILL result in a dead hand. Again, as Jim stated, its unethical but not illegal, and we are trying to instill ethics as well as the rules. Mutliple occurances "may result in disqualification," this is there to allow the TD the discretion to do what is fair. |
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millerd33
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| 2/13/2009 2:10 PM |
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| God Bless the Eastern Region! |
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OswaldR
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| 2/13/2009 5:40 PM |
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Hello Griff,
Do you realize how many times people really DO say what they have...alot more often than you probably realize. It would be impossible to call the TD over EVERY time someone states there hand, and then watch the hand played out to see if if they did indeed have that hand. The TD just doesn't have that kind of time every game. That is why I stated it should be enforced every time, to save the TD from wasting alot of time, and watch everything play out. If it is a RC rule, it would be nice to know that when someone says what they have in there hand, I can guarantee myself they do NOT have that hand as I make my play. Or, do I really HAVE to call the TDs over Every time someone says their hand? And I know it says "may result". Can that be changed to WILL result so we can save the arguments? Just clarifying so I know.....Thanks. |
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Shortpro
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| 2/14/2009 9:13 AM |
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| I agree. |
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Jim
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| 2/14/2009 10:17 AM |
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Posted By OswaldR on 2/13/2009 5:40 PM
Hello Griff,
Do you realize how many times people really DO say what they have...alot more often than you probably realize. It would be impossible to call the TD over EVERY time someone states there hand, and then watch the hand played out to see if if they did indeed have that hand. The TD just doesn't have that kind of time every game. That is why I stated it should be enforced every time, to save the TD from wasting alot of time, and watch everything play out. If it is a RC rule, it would be nice to know that when someone says what they have in there hand, I can guarantee myself they do NOT have that hand as I make my play. Or, do I really HAVE to call the TDs over Every time someone says their hand? And I know it says "may result". Can that be changed to WILL result so we can save the arguments? Just clarifying so I know.....Thanks.
NO... It cannot.
If you feel that a guy is breaking a rule, and are that intent on playing by those rules, that are not enforced in any casino game, then stop before you act. Call the TD over, and get a ruling. BEFORE YOU ACT.
These rules are not in place to prevent people from playing poker. These rules are in place to protect people who are playing for the first time, or have limited experience.
They are not to be taken advantage of.
As I said before, outside of the general rules of poker, i.e. A beats a king, blind structure, 2 hole cards per person, etc...
THERE ARE NO HARD AND FAST RULES IN POKER.
WSOP - THis year... MAIN EVENT:
5 separate times the same issue came up at different tables throughout different parts of the room.
All 5 situations were given a different ruling by different tournament directors, and they all happened within a 2 hour period.
THAT'S the nature of the game. You have to be willing to play the game understanding that.
IF we infact made this a hard rule, it would ruin the experience for EVERYONE. Because, as we know , some people do things blatantly to take advantange of a situation. With a rule that is set in stone, it wil be easier to do so. That will make it unfair to those just starting the game, when they inadvertantly state what they have while contemplating a call.
And that is the why the rule exists. THAT person does not deserve to have the hand called dead. |
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griff49
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| 2/14/2009 10:22 AM |
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Robert,
You are absolutely correct that the TD doesn't have the time to watch every table, which is why it's important for the table to be able to govern itself for items such as this. It's pretty simple to politely ask someone who is talking about their hand to refrain from doing so because it is bad etiquette and if abused, could result in a dead hand, and more strictly, removal from the tournament. I'm not specifically talking about telling the truth either, I am talking about "talking about your hand"... whether it's a lie or the truth. Discussing the content of your hand is the issue. Be it truth or a lie, as soon as a player mentions, "I have 'x'", or "I don't have 'X'"... that is discussion.
Obviously, this concerns mid-hand play. I don't want someone to confuse this and think that at a showdown when someone says "I have Kings" and prior to turning over his cards the opponent says, "You Discussed Your Hand, It's Dead, I Win the Pot!... .Griff Said So In The Forums... Call Him and Ask Him." You may think that this is a ridiculous statement but I've gotten many calls about situations just like this.
I will re-write the rule, but I'm not changing the 'may' to 'will', I'm going to change it from 'Disclosing' to 'Discussing'.
A friendly warning from one player to another should be the first step. I second friendly warning for a second offense. Then call the TD over for a 3rd time. It will then be the TD's decision on what to do from there.
The bottom line, don't discuss your hand, don't lie about your hand, don't tell the truth about your hand, dont' discuss your hand.
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Eric Aman
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| 2/14/2009 12:12 PM |
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| i'll govern whatever table im at dont worry about it, oh and the 4th time it happens its a parking lot fight against frank mcdonald and knowone wants that. |
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acstony
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| 2/14/2009 2:58 PM |
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Biggest rule abuse I see, is failure to show cards at the showdown. Some people are to embarrassed to show how badly they played the hand. I've also seen people turn over what they thought was the loosing hand only to have another player point out they won and hadn't realized they had the best hand. My rule, always turn 'em over, eight pair of eyes are better than one.
I don't know about Frank in the parking lot, but I know I can take Ronald MacDonald. |
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