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Subject: Just getting opinions
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DiggerB
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1/27/2010 1:18 PM Alert 

I know there never is just one play to make and everyone has opinions on hands but Im just looking for thoughts on this hand.

2/4 blinds

I am BB with 3 limpers ahead and the SB limps too...so 5 blinds in the pot....I look at A 10 offsuit...mediocre hand out of position.

check - or- raise

I check cause why do I want to get reraised (there are a few players at the table that may have been limping to trap) and then I would have to fold. I decide to play the flop and see. (opinion #1)

Flop comes out 10 7 4 rainbow ...top pair top kicker. Im only a little worried about a set but the people who limped late like to raise with small pairs.

So I decide to bet 3/4 of pot (bet of 15), (opinion #2) reasons being, all based on previous play with the players

1) early limpers would shove if they hit a set or might call if they hit the 10 with a hand like K 10, Q 10

2) late position players would shove to steal and I could re-reraise..Or if they hit a set they would smooth call.

limpers fold, Button resaises to 75. I have him covered and my gut screams he is trying to steal my raise. I really dont think he hit a set just cause he did not raise preflop from the button. So I trust my read or gut feeling whatever you call it and shove (opinion #3)..Button calls

turns out i was partially correct. No set but he hit 2 pair 10 4 offsuit. And then i caught a lucky Ace to win. But the outcome doesn't change the choices made above.


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Jim
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1/27/2010 2:45 PM Alert 
Posted By DiggerB on 1/27/2010 1:18 PM

I know there never is just one play to make and everyone has opinions on hands but Im just looking for thoughts on this hand.

2/4 blinds

I am BB with 3 limpers ahead and the SB limps too...so 5 blinds in the pot....I look at A 10 offsuit...mediocre hand out of position.

check - or- raise  Raise.  It's probably the best opportunity to take it down now

I check cause why do I want to get reraised (there are a few players at the table that may have been limping to trap) and then I would have to fold. I decide to play the flop and see. (opinion #1)

That's a very reasonable option and acceptable.  But raising versus checking dictates the rest of your decision making abilities the rest of the way

Flop comes out 10 7 4 rainbow ...top pair top kicker. Im only a little worried about a set but the people who limped late like to raise with small pairs.

So I decide to bet 3/4 of pot (bet of 15), (opinion #2) reasons being, all based on previous play with the players

1) early limpers would shove if they hit a set or might call if they hit the 10 with a hand like K 10, Q 10

2) late position players would shove to steal and I could re-reraise..Or if they hit a set they would smooth call.

This is flawed thinking.  It sounds as if you are trying to convince yourself that one pair is good.  I would be more worried about a junk two pair

limpers fold, Button resaises to 75. I have him covered and my gut screams he is trying to steal my raise. I really dont think he hit a set just cause he did not raise preflop from the button. So I trust my read or gut feeling whatever you call it and shove (opinion #3)..Button calls

turns out i was partially correct. No set but he hit 2 pair 10 4 offsuit. And then i caught a lucky Ace to win. But the outcome doesn't change the choices made above.

The whole issue between checking and raising becomes what story do you want to tell.  If you think you may be repopped pre by a weaker hand (steal/ resteal) Then raise.  Now you have them in a bad spot.  If you check, you have to be aware that the flop might crush two or more of those limpers putting you in a bad spot.  when there is 5 players to a flop One pair is usually never good.

If you do raise, you are telling everyone that you have a hand.  If you check, you really need to crush the flop, or play the pot as small as possible.  you got what you wanted.  That is, his stack.  But you needed to get lucky to do so.

just realize that by checking, you are going to be up against a complete range of hands, and will need to play cautiously without ever really knowing where you are.  This is why I like the raise better.

 


http://riggstad-nutstraight.blogspot.com/index.html
DiggerB
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1/27/2010 3:34 PM Alert 
Posted By Jim on 1/27/2010 2:45 PM
Posted By DiggerB on 1/27/2010 1:18 PM

I know there never is just one play to make and everyone has opinions on hands but Im just looking for thoughts on this hand.

2/4 blinds

I am BB with 3 limpers ahead and the SB limps too...so 5 blinds in the pot....I look at A 10 offsuit...mediocre hand out of position.

check - or- raise  Raise.  It's probably the best opportunity to take it down now

I check cause why do I want to get reraised (there are a few players at the table that may have been limping to trap) and then I would have to fold. I decide to play the flop and see. (opinion #1)

That's a very reasonable option and acceptable.  But raising versus checking dictates the rest of your decision making abilities the rest of the way

yea taking my approach lead to having to convince myself that a pair was good.

Flop comes out 10 7 4 rainbow ...top pair top kicker. Im only a little worried about a set but the people who limped late like to raise with small pairs.

So I decide to bet 3/4 of pot (bet of 15), (opinion #2) reasons being, all based on previous play with the players

1) early limpers would shove if they hit a set or might call if they hit the 10 with a hand like K 10, Q 10

2) late position players would shove to steal and I could re-reraise..Or if they hit a set they would smooth call.

This is flawed thinking.  It sounds as if you are trying to convince yourself that one pair is good.  I would be more worried about a junk two pair

It really is rare I go broke with just a pair, at least early in a tournament

limpers fold, Button resaises to 75. I have him covered and my gut screams he is trying to steal my raise. I really dont think he hit a set just cause he did not raise preflop from the button. So I trust my read or gut feeling whatever you call it and shove (opinion #3)..Button calls

turns out i was partially correct. No set but he hit 2 pair 10 4 offsuit. And then i caught a lucky Ace to win. But the outcome doesn't change the choices made above.

The whole issue between checking and raising becomes what story do you want to tell.  If you think you may be repopped pre by a weaker hand (steal/ resteal) Then raise.  Now you have them in a bad spot.  If you check, you have to be aware that the flop might crush two or more of those limpers putting you in a bad spot.  when there is 5 players to a flop One pair is usually never good.

If you do raise, you are telling everyone that you have a hand.  If you check, you really need to crush the flop, or play the pot as small as possible.  you got what you wanted.  That is, his stack.  But you needed to get lucky to do so.

Oh I totaly got lucky, but I am only looking at the choices I made....not what happened afterwards.

just realize that by checking, you are going to be up against a complete range of hands, and will need to play cautiously without ever really knowing where you are.  This is why I like the raise better.

 

And I know what Tom will say "A 10" why are you playing crap like that 

 



 


Just Bust a Move
DiggerB
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1/27/2010 3:38 PM Alert 
But Jim after making the choice to just check from the BB, is the 3/4 pot bet a good/bad bet at that time? And then fold to the resaise?

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Jim
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1/27/2010 3:53 PM Alert 

Early in a tournament, given that situation... AT is usually a monster.  I say usually because the amount of times someone is going to slow play a monster is rare.  Given that the blinds are so small and no one is really looking to build a big pot.

As a matter of fact, the only time I have ever seen anyone go out in the first round in a live tournament, 1) the money got all in preflop with AK (horrid) versus a pair, or (2) the board played out with such a massive cooler.

So given that, I would say a raise is probably the better play in that same scenario.  The issue becomes it has to be a good sized raise.  It can't be 3x the blind or even 5x's the blind.  That prices too many folks in.

A pot bet is probably 10's the blind at that point (I'm not going through figuring out what the blinds are and who is in...)  OK I will....  I think you said 2/4 so 4 x's 5 =20 + your 20 would be a 40 raise.  giving anyone horrible odds to just call with crap.  If you get shoved on, chances are you are racing to an underpair.  What do you want to do now?  I'd say fold.  You stil have 160 and about 40 bb's left.  It's not that hard.  Of course you could be dominated by some idiot who think limping shoving with AJ is a great play

This is what tournament play is all about. The best decisions. 


http://riggstad-nutstraight.blogspot.com/index.html
Jim
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1/27/2010 4:15 PM Alert 
Posted By DiggerB on 1/27/2010 3:38 PM
But Jim after making the choice to just check from the BB, is the 3/4 pot bet a good/bad bet at that time? And then fold to the resaise?


I like the 3/4's pot bet.  the decision has to be if you want to go with it.  you certainly can't check.  But you certainly can't think that your hand is good if you are shoved on.

Even if the board is kind of connected or flushy, you are still flipping if he has a draw.  Chances are you're not getting shoved on by just another pair of tens.  most of the time you are dominated and should probably fold.

Some would advocate check calling a  bet to keep the pot small, but I don't like that here.  You have top pair.  If you check/ flat a bet, you are reallly dependant on a good turn because you know a bet HAS to be coming.  and hence you might be committed.

This is where knowing your opponent comes into play.  If you know this guy is likely to bet any flop a check/ jam is a good strategy.  Check flatting is also ok, if you know him or her to be tight.  From here you can see if the turn is going ot help you or complete some stupid draw.  If you know the player to be cautious and think you can keep the pot small enough then check flatting is somewhat acceptable as well.

There is so many variables here that it's kind of tough to hash out here.


http://riggstad-nutstraight.blogspot.com/index.html
ADuncan
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1/28/2010 9:22 AM Alert 

Brian, will you be at Uno's tonight?  We can "discuss" it then.

DiggerB
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1/28/2010 4:59 PM Alert 
Posted By ADuncan on 1/28/2010 9:22 AM

Brian, will you be at Uno's tonight?  We can "discuss" it then.


I wont be there tonight...not cause of this...Im home sick with a stomach bug all day.
 


Just Bust a Move
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